FOX News - Glenn Beck Show - ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow Discusses War on Terrorism

There's growing debate over the methods used to secure information to protect the United States against terrorism.  The Glenn Beck Show focused on the topic of enhanced interrogation techniques and discussed the issue with ACLJ Chief Counsel Jay Sekulow.

You can watch the interview here.

You can read a transcript of the interview below.

The Glenn Beck Show, April 24, 2009

GLENN BECK, HOST: I have to tell you, this whole thing is going to come down like a house of cards here soon. I sense the government is just - it's spiraling out of control. And you increase media - just the interest in the media saying wait a minute, that doesn't sound right, by five percent. You get the rest of the clowns in the media to carry some water besides this network, and this thing is going to fall apart like that.

There are too many things going on just right underneath the surface that aren't right. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi claims while President Bush was in office, Congress was never told about the enhanced interrogation techniques that the Obama administration just banned.

The problem is, quote, Washington Post said that she and lawmakers from both parties took a virtual tour of the CIA overseas detention site and they were briefed on harsh techniques including waterboarding.

Chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Sekulow is with us.

Jay, I have been waiting for ask this question for a long time. What did she know and when did she know it?

JAY SEKULOW, CHIEF COUNSEL, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: Well, we know one thing. In 2002, they were briefed. We also know that in that briefing, she was told that the office of legal counsel for both the Department of Justice and for the military had come to the conclusion that waterboarding was, in fact, not deemed to be torture in violation of the Geneva Conventions.

So if she knew that the lawyers had already said that this technique, this enhanced interrogation technique, was legal, well, of course they had to explain what it was. No one at that meeting expressed any concern or outrage. Now, six years later, they're doing this retrospective.

BECK: No, you're wrong. They did. Some of them said, "Are you sure it's enough?"

SEKULOW: Yes, that would be outrage.

BECK: Are you sure you're going for -

SEKULOW: That's right, that's right.

BECK: That's exactly right.

SEKULOW: Yes, there were two of them - two of them actually said that, that it is enough to get the information.

BECK: OK.

SEKULOW: This is coming right on the heels of September 11, so it makes sense.

BECK: Now, America, I'm going to propose - and Jay, I selected you as a guest today for a reason because I'm going to ask you why we're not doing this. First, I want to show you what Nancy Pelosi said yesterday. Play that one, please.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: We were not - I repeat - we were not told that waterboarding, or any of these any other enhanced interrogation methods, were used. What they did tell us is that they had some legislative counsel, the Office of Legislative Counsel's opinion that they could be used, but not that they would. My experience was they did not tell us they were using that, flat out, and any contention to the contrary is simply not true.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: I did not have sex with that woman. Monica Lewinsky - not one time. Let me tell you something. It's so clear that she's the definition of quot;is.quot; That's what she is doing here.

SEKULOW: It's worse than that.

BECK: Why?

SEKULOW: It's worse than that, actually, because we know that she was at those briefings.

BECK: Yes.

SEKULOW: We know that those briefings were secret briefings as far as they were confidential. And we know that the office of legal counsel - that was she was referring to - inside the Department of Justice, came to the conclusion that waterboarding as a technique did not violate the Geneva Conventions.

So then to say - it's disingenuous to say, well, we know all of that, but I didn't know they were going to actually do it. Why did they brief her on the legality of a method and then she assumed they were not going to do it?

BECK: Jay, that's absolutely -

SEKULOW: That would have been a waste of time.

BECK: Jay, if I say to you - I call you up, let's just pretend, "Hello, it's Jay. - Hey, Jay, it's Glenn. Listen, I'm going to stop by your house tonight and I'm going to say hi to your grandma. I may set her on fire but I may not. Then I'm going to have some dinner and I'm probably going to stay the weekend at your grandma's house. See you later." Click.

Do you say later, if I set your grandmother on fire, do you have a case that, "I didn't know he was actually going to set her on fire?" Nobody in their right mind ...

SEKULOW: Of course, Glenn.

BECK: ... would say anything but, quot;Wait, wait, wait what was that thing about setting my grandma on fire?

SEKULOW: You know what? Go ahead -

BECK: This is so disingenuous.

SEKULOW: It is. Here is what you have to understand. I know you do, Glenn, and I appreciate that you are covering it like this. The fact of the matter from a legal analysis, when the office of legal counsel makes a position for the Department of Justice that is speaking on behalf of the United States Government, certainly the president and the executive branch - they were briefed fully on this issue.

This is on the heels of September 11th. And now, you've got this post-hoc justification of we're going to have all these truth commissions ...

BECK: Yes.

SEKULOW: ... which is absurd.

BECK: OK.

SEKULOW: These people were in the meetings. They know what was said.

BECK: Look, they must distract people. They must keep George Bush alive ...

SEKULOW: Right.

BECK: ... in all of these things. Otherwise, their house of cards is going to fall down.

SEKULOW: All right.

BECK: Listen to the last piece from Nancy Pelosi - here's the last piece from the talk yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PELOSI: They don't come in to consult. They come in to notify. They come in to notify and you can't change what they are doing unless you can act as a committee or as a class. You can't change what they're doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BECK: OK. So, Jay, "Hey, Jay."

SEKULOW: Right.

BECK: Quote - "I'm just calling to notify you. I'm going to stop by your grandma's house. I'm probably going to set her on fire and then I'm going to just spend the weekend at your grandma's house. I may not set her on fire. I'm not really sure. See you later."

SEKULOW: Yes.

BECK: You would never say, "Well, he just notified me. I couldn't do anything. Of course you could.

SEKULOW: First of all, does anybody believe for a moment that Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the House - if she was objecting or then, she was a member of Congress and a vocal member of Congress - that if she was really objecting to procedure - an interrogation procedure or technique, that she would not have raised her voice of concern?

You know what she does and say in that meeting? She does not say in that meeting when they said waterboarding is legal, she didn't come out and say, "Oh, I can't believe you are doing that." Or, "That's wrong. We shouldn't do that. It violates the Geneva Convention."

And the irony of ironies of all of this is, we're complaining about - or there are some that are complaining about waterboarding as if al-Qaeda and their allies are playing by the Geneva Convention. They certainly didn't with Danny Pearl.

BECK: You know what? I don't even want to go that way. That's where the rest of the media is going.

SEKULOW: Yes.

BECK: That is the game they want you to play. I'm not going to play that.

SEKULOW: Yes.

BECK: I'm playing a different game and I'm going to ask you for your help and you tell me how we, as the American people, get this done. I'm not playing their game anymore. I know how they play it. We'll do that, next.

BECK: We're back with the chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Sekulow. Now, Jay, we were talking about Nancy Pelosi coming out and saying, "Hey, they didn't tell me about waterboarding. They told me, but they didn't tell me they were going to do it. They only told me they could do it."

SEKULOW: Right.

BECK: She had all kind of nonsensical pieces of information there that just didn't make any sense at all. So here is where I want to go, because I really truly believe within my heart - this is not "let's go get Nancy Pelosi," because I think they are all corrupt or a good portion of them are corrupt.

So here is what I would like to do. I think this is vital information for the American people, because we have to know, who do we trust? We either have a CIA and a bunch of the spooks running around in Washington that you cannot trust and are taking and throwing politicians under a bus for their own political sake, or worse, to cover their butts on something really spooky that they're doing. Or Nancy Pelosi is covering her butt politically. But there is an easy way to answer this - the minutes exist.

SEKULOW: Absolutely.

BECK: I think the American people should demand those - and you watch, they are going to mysteriously - I want an ankle bracelet on - what's his name? Sandy Berger. I want an ankle bracelet on Sandy Berger. I want to know if he is around any documents at all. Those things are going to be - they're going to end up missing. You watch. Why can't we demand -

SEKULOW: Yes, yes. We know that.

BECK: What?

SEKULOW: You can demand. You should demand because the reality - you're right on this, Glenn. They are releasing - first of all, they are releasing top secret information that our enemies now have access to. So if we're going to release information with - the former Vice President Dick Cheney said the other day, "Start releasing information. Let's find out what was said in that meeting."  They want to redact a top secret device ...

BECK: I'm totally fine with that.

SEKULOW: But let's know what they said.

BECK: Yes.

SEKULOW: But you know what? They will not do it. But we need to enforce it.

BECK: OK -

SEKULOW: Who knows? You get enough of the (UNINTELLIGIBLE). Maybe they can do it.

BECK: OK. Here you are - this is what your organization does.

SEKULOW: Yes.

BECK: I mean, what - do we need to have to have FOX? I know FOX already has the freedom of information request out on something else. Who is going to ask for this to be released, and not in five years - right now?

SEKULOW: We have -

BECK: It is national security. The American people need to know. Is the CIA out of control or is Nancy Pelosi? Only one can be the right answer, and it is vital that we know who we can trust and who is lying to us.

SEKULOW: Our government affairs office in Washington, D.C. could absolutely file a freedom of information request.

BECK: Will you do it?

SEKULOW: And we will do it. I'll tell something else. Knowing the lawyers that were working in the Bush administration, Glenn, as well as I do - these were some of the best and brightest. They are the best and brightest in the United States. These were great lawyers. And you know what this is doing and the reason we need that memo? It is undercutting the ability of lawyers to advise their clients.

BECK: Oh, yes. No, I know that.

SEKULOW: That could include the president of the United States.

BECK: I know that.

SEKULOW: And that is really dangerous. So let's just get the information.

BECK: I don't want memos. I want the minutes.

SEKULOW: I agree.

BECK: I want her words. I want the words of the people that were in there. And you're exactly right. I don't need any kind of secret stuff that hasn't been out. I want them talking about waterboarding and I want her reaction. If you are being honest, Nancy Pelosi, you would have said - Wait, wait, wait. What is that? What are you are talking about?

There would have been some response, and I'll bet you it was exactly the opposite. Jay, thank you.

SEKULOW: Right.

BECK: We'll stay in touch. Will you let us know when you file that?

SEKULOW: We will do it.

BECK: Good.

SEKULOW: Thanks, Glenn.