FOX News - Hannity & Colmes - Using the Koran For Congressional Swearing-In Ceremony

January 8, 2007

FOX NEWS - Hannity & Colmes

SEAN HANNITY: Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison garnered international attention when he used the Koran once owned by Thomas Jefferson during his ceremonial swearing in. The congressman says that the Muslim holy book influenced the founding fathers.

Ellison told the "Detroit Free Press," quote, "Jefferson was a broad visionary thinker who not only possessed the Koran, but read it. It would have been something that contributed to his own thinking," he said.

Joining us now is the chief counsel for the American Center for Law and Justice, Jay Sekulow, and former Democratic Congressman Martin Frost.

Jay, do you agree with that assessment in the "Detroit Free Press"?

JAY SEKULOW, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: No, I'll tell you what. You know, this country is founded on a principle that -- and the courts have talked about this, Sean -- called ceremonial deism. This is as common understanding of the civic religion of America.

And part of that is within the Judeo -- it really is within the Judeo- Christian tradition. And what I think the congressman should have done in this particular situation -- if he was objecting to taking an oath on the Bible, we don't have a religious oath requirement in the United States. And I think that's in the Constitution. That's clear.

He should have just abstained from using a book at all, because once you go down this road, the danger is, once you get outside of our ceremonial deism, our commonality, what you end up with is anything goes at that point.

And you've had this discussion on previous aspects of the program, where, does someone that finds a particular book that many of us might find offensive to be something they're influenced by, do they get to use that as the oath of office for the swearing in? And I think the answer has to be no.

That's why we start the Supreme Court of the United States with "God save the United States and this honorable court." It doesn't mean everybody agrees with that. It doesn't mean everybody believes in it. But that's the commonality of a religious heritage, of a religious experience.

And let's not start rewriting it. That's the danger with what Congress -- the congressman did here. I would have thought the better thing for him have to done was just not take an oath on a particular book, if he's going to go outside of the American tradition.

BOB BECKEL: You know, Martin Frost, Bob Beckel. I don't quite understand what the big deal is here. I mean, what's your take on all this? It seems to me to get an awful lot of copy for not very much. And, by the way, I'll disagree with Jay on one thing in a second, but, go ahead, Martin.

FORMER REP. MARTIN FROST (D), TEXAS: Bob, I think it's just an appeal to religious bigotry in this country. Look, you have two Buddhists who are elected to this Congress. You have a number of Jewish members. You have Mormons in the Congress. You have all kinds of people. They can use any religious book they want.

This was an African-American born in the United States, converted to the Muslim religion when he was in college. No one is suggesting he's not a loyal American. This is a big to-do about nothing for people who want to appeal to religious bigotry.

BECKEL: And, Jay, can I make the point? The God we talk about is that -- the Muslims adhere to that God, at least they -- as do the Jews.

SEKULOW: It's monotheistic, sure.

BECKEL: As do the Christians. But let me make another point. You know, Benjamin Franklin, when he was ambassador to France, studied the Koran. He was very interested in it. Of course, there was a lot of Muslim influence in France at that time. But I'm not sure -- what Martin just said about this bigotry, aren't we getting carried a little too far here and using this as a way to take a shot at Muslims?

SEKULOW: Well, I think you have to -- any time you start developing religious tests, you have to be careful. But what I find interesting here, Bob -- and appreciate your comments, but let me tell you where I disagree.

There is, in the United States, a specific -- and when Justice O'Connor, not exactly the most conservative member of the Supreme Court when she served -- but she said this, and she was a very moderate influence. We have this ceremonial deism in the United States, which is part of the Judeo-Christian, you know, tradition here.

And when you start going outside of the text -- and, again, I don't think you could make any congressman or anyone serving in office from having to swear on anything -- but I do think you have to have the ability to respect the traditions of the country and just abstain from using a book at that particular time.

(CROSSTALK)

HANNITY: We're just out of time, guys.

FROST: You've some Christians who don't Mormons are Christians, are believers.

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Well, it's a free country.

FROST: What are we going to do with Harry Reid as a Mormon? Come on. Where are going to draw the line?

SEKULOW: Respect the ceremonial deism of the United States.

HANNITY: We've got to run, guys. Thank you very much. We're going to have more on the breaking news.

SEKULOW: Thanks, Sean.