CNN CROSSFIRE - Jay Sekulow Debates Terri Schiavo Case

CNN CROSSFIRE
March 22, 2005

ANNOUNCER: CROSSFIRE. On the left, James Carville; on the right, Robert Novak.

In the CROSSFIRE: the politics of life and death. After one judge says no to reinserting her feeding tube, Terri Schiavo's fate is now in the hands of a federal appeals court.

ANNOUNCER: Live from the George Washington University, James Carville and Robert Novak.

JAMES CARVILLE: Once again, the fate of Terri Schiavo is in the hands of a court. This time, it's three federal appeals judges in Atlanta considering the case. What will they decide? And should they even be involved?

Here to debate the issue with us is Jay Sekulow with the Center For American Law and Justice, who is representing Schiavo's parents, and Congressman Jim Moran, my congressman from Northern Virginia.

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: Congressman, thanks for coming in.

I would like you to listen to a statement made by the attorney for the -- Ms. Schiavo's family. Let's listen to him.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID GIBBS, ATTORNEY FOR PARENTS OF TERRI SCHIAVO: ... she's being denied is her fundamental right to life. She is being murdered in a barbaric fashion. She is being starved to death. And so, as we look at this case, we say her life, we say her liberty, we say her religious freedom, and, yes, we agree her right to privacy is even being violated, because we don't believe Terri ever had these wishes.

There was never a time where Terri Schiavo said, you know, if I'm ever brain-damaged, be sure to starve me to death.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NOVAK: Do you have some embarrassment, Congressman, of acquiescing and supporting the starving to death of a human being in a state where to do the same with a dog is a felony?

REP. JIM MORAN (D), VIRGINIA: I'm not the one that should be embarrassed. But if you're taking that position, Bob, you should.

And, certainly, my colleagues in the Congress should be embarrassed at the idea that they would reach in to a family tragedy and pick sides in an area that they have no business getting involved in. I don't know who's right. He's paid to use inflammatory words, and he -- and he did that. I don't know where Jay is coming from. And you don't know who's right in this court case. James doesn't know. Jay doesn't know.

But I do know that 19 judges, many of them conservative Republicans, in 10 court cases, all of them decided that Terri Schiavo's wishes were most consistently carried out by agreeing with the husband that she would have wanted her -- the tube taken out of her mouth.

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: Now, 10 court cases, Bob, what more do you need, 19 judges?

(APPLAUSE)

NOVAK: You're making a nice speech, but I asked you a question.

MORAN: Nice -- I'm just telling you the facts. That's all I know and that's all you know.

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Well, I would like you to listen to my question this time. I know you have got your talking points.

MORAN: You asked if I was going to be embarrassed. I don't have any talking points.

NOVAK: I just wondered if there is some problem. I can't understand how a human being could say, we're taking a decision that murders this woman and you don't have any problem with that?

MORAN: Oh. Oh, listen to that language.

NOVAK: I'm asking you. Isn't she being murdered?

MORAN: This -- we're talking about sustaining what is biological life, but she does not have a cerebral cortex.

NOVAK: Oh, you know, huh?

MORAN: She can't think.

NOVAK: You know that, huh?

MORAN: Well, I know that the doctors who examined her, Bob, said she doesn't. They looked at the X-rays.

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: You know, you're not a doctor. I'm not a doctor.

JAY SEKULOW, CHIEF COUNSEL, AMERICAN CENTER FOR LAW AND JUSTICE: That's a problem, by the way. They looked at -- they looked at X- rays. They have not done a PET scan and that's never been done with this woman.

CARVILLE: All right. Let me -- let me just say that...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... I find it strange that, on August 6, 2001, President Bush gets a CIA intelligence briefing that says that Osama bin Laden is about to strike the United States, and he doesn't move. He stays in Texas.

Then, the right -- the ultra right-wing people come in and say, this is a cause celebre. We're going to politicize this thing. He gets up at 1:00 in the morning, signs a bill, gets on a jet and comes back to Washington.

(APPLAUSE)

CARVILLE: Don't you think there's something wrong with the priorities here?

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

SEKULOW: Well, do you -- James, let me ask you this.

CARVILLE: Sure.

SEKULOW: Do you really think -- and I'm surprised at you.

CARVILLE: Don't be surprised...

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Do you -- do you really think that...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I really think Osama bin Laden is a bigger threat than Terri Schiavo.

(CROSSTALK)

(APPLAUSE)

SEKULOW: Yes, well, unless you're in Terri Schiavo's position. And if you're in Terri Schiavo's position, it's pretty threatening if you're going to be starved to death. That's No. 1.

CARVILLE: Right.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: You know what?

SEKULOW: Hold it. Hold it. Hold it, James.

NOVAK: James...

(CROSSTALK) CARVILLE: You don't like the question.

SEKULOW: No, I'm...

(CROSSTALK)

NOVAK: Let him answer it!

SEKULOW: Obviously, you don't want me to answer it.

CARVILLE: Go ahead.

SEKULOW: Now, here's the -- here's the answer.

CARVILLE: Go ahead.

SEKULOW: The president took action after Congress passed a bill. The person's life and liberty was on the line. Congress made a decision. Now, the congressman brings up a point. Some didn't like the decision that was made. But once it's made, it's not you deciding, you, James, or anybody else.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I'm not deciding anything. I'm saying, it's more important to come back to Washington to fight terrorism...

SEKULOW: You talking to me...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: ... than it is to suck up to the right wing of the Republican Party.

SEKULOW: Do you consider -- do you...

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Hold it. Hold it. Hold it.

(APPLAUSE)

SEKULOW: James, do you think that the Americans -- the Americans with disabilities groups from all broad spectrums of groups, do you think those American disabilities group...

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Excuse me. I'm not here to be a potted plant.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I think terrorism is more important.

NOVAK: Could you let him finish a sentence?

CARVILLE: Go ahead.

SEKULOW: You know, James, what you're doing is?

CARVILLE: Right.

SEKULOW: You won't look at the fundamentals. I am a lawyer. I deal with evidence.

CARVILLE: Right. Right.

SEKULOW: Evidence one, look who has filed briefs on behalf of Terri Schiavo's side, disability groups. From your perspective...

CARVILLE: Nineteen judges.

SEKULOW: No, 19 judges, not one of which, by the way, James -- not one of those judges has ever laid their eyes on Terri Schiavo. Do you know that?

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Hold it, 19 judges. Hold it, you're sentencing someone to death and you don't look at them?

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: A judge has never...

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: They sentence people to death all the time. They never saw the crime.

SEKULOW: There hasn't been a neurological exam of this woman.

(BELL RINGING)

SEKULOW: There you go.

NOVAK: Congressman -- Congressman -- Congressman Moran, I'd like to read you a statement made by your colleague, Al Wynn, Democrat of Maryland. And I am sure you think he's a good guy. I think he's a good guy.

He said: "At the end of the day, I believe, in the absence of a living will expressing her desires, and giving the willingness of her parents and siblings to care for her, Congress should afford Ms. Schiavo the opportunity to continue receiving life-saving sustenance."

Now, isn't it a fact that when the Congress passed the bill, that that's what they intended the federal judge to do, until it looked at the facts, to continue to give her life-saving sustenance? And the judge, the Clinton appointee, is ignoring the act of Congress. Isn't that correct?

MORAN: There were 19 judges, many of them Republican-appointed judges.

SEKULOW: What about this judge...

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: All of whom concluded the same way that this judge. But because this judge is a Clinton appointee, you denigrate that decision. All of the judges have reached the same conclusion because they looked at all the evidence, heard from all of the witnesses, Bob. We didn't.

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Congressman, I mean, I know you don't like the bill, but it was passed and it's law.

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: Here was the job. The federal judge's job at that point, James -- wait a minute -- was supposed to look at the evidence. It was supposed to be a de novo review, which legally means a full review of everything.

CARVILLE: Right.

SEKULOW: He did this in an hour and 15 minutes. That's impossible, legally impossible.

(CROSSTALK)

CARVILLE: I understand you don't want to answer questions.

Let me go to a person who represents Congressman Moran and myself in Virginia in the...

SEKULOW: By the way, the Congressional Black Caucus filed in favor of this also.

CARVILLE: Let me -- let me go again -- let me just try to get a question out -- to a person that represents us in the Senate of the United States, the senior senator from my state of Virginia, who I don't vote for and don't share a party for, but who has been around for quite a long time. And I think his credentials as a conservative are pretty well established.

And that is Senator John Warner, who said: "I believe it is unwise to take from the state of Florida its constitutional responsibility to resolve issues in this case. This bill, in effect, challenges the integrity and capabilities of the state courts in Florida."

Now, it used to be that Republicans were for sort of states' rights. But they're for states' rights only if they like the result that states' rights produce. Why is our senator...

(APPLAUSE) CARVILLE: Senator for Congressman Moran and I, Jim -- John Warner, doing this? I notice Mr. Novak didn't bring up Senator Warner.

MORAN: James, there's another aspect to this.

You know, on the very same night that they brought this bill up without any notice, passed it unanimously at 10:30, because none of us were aware it was coming up, that was the day we passed a budget resolution that took tens of billions of dollars out of the...

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: Oh, sure. That's what we're supposed to be doing. We're not supposed to get...

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: It took tens of billions from sick elderly people who are dependent upon that very care.

SEKULOW: you know what? That's all great.

(APPLAUSE)

SEKULOW: But you know what?

(CROSSTALK)

MORAN: They have a brain. And, you know -- and we're taking their care from them.

(BELL RINGING)

SEKULOW: No one is putting themselves...

(CROSSTALK)

SEKULOW: But you passed a bill, Congressman. And the federal judge is supposed to comply with the law. And instead of complying with the law, he gave it a blink, a nod.